Apr 18, 2023·edited Apr 18, 2023Liked by Craig Barton
I would really hope that your fourth suggestion isn't controversial. I would also hope that adults realise how easy it is to copy text without reading it, let alone engaging with it in any meaningful way.
I emigrated to New Zealand in 2020 after 20 years working in the UK education system, Over here we still have to share learning goals and success criteria but the SLT don't do book checks and so long as we can show we have shares goals and criteria with students that is enough for any observation that may be done.. I know some teachers get students to copy them, I don't as I have them on my lesson slides which the students can access from classroom should they wish, and I'd rather students spent their time doing the maths. I think your suggestion of using whiteboards to try a similar question to the worked example is a good one, and i'll be trying that next term.
Craig, a breath of fresh air as always. I've left classroom teaching now, largely as a result of SLT failure to allow professionals to reason and follow reasoning and evidence on how best to improve their classroom practice. Green pen, purple pen, tick every page (!). And the sad realisation that they won't listen to a word that we say. There are some enlightened exceptions but overall they are deaf and blind to anything that challenges the 'orthodoxy'. Thanks again Craig.
I retired from teaching 13 years ago. One of the things that drove me out was that as a result of Ofsted comments our school introduced regular book checks. My books were like rough work books - we didnt copy from the board and we didnt do formal corrections. But I did show pupils how solutions should be set out - especially in exams. And to be honest I resented having to "mark" the work as it was just every day class work. I only marked set pieces of work or tests. My exam results were always very good and I know that pupils were learning. And yet Ofsted wanted to see evidence in the books. Neat, exact work with lots of teacher comments may be appropriate in some subjects. But in my view not only was it not necessary in maths teaching but it was counter productive and wasted valuable learning time.
Hi Tom. I'm of the same view. I also think Ofsted have changed their stance on books (for the better) but the legacy message still rings true in the ears of some SLT. Frustrating! Thanks for your reply
I went back to school a few years ago and completed a post grad qualification and I definitely saw the value of annotating notes and reflection note taking. I have been explicitly teaching students reflection writing ever since and also how to use the Cornell note taking system. I think it is important for students to write notes that make sense to them. I also find faded examples to be a good approach.
Yes, I'm all in favour of reflective note taking and annotations. I think it's a skill that students (especially young ones) need time and guidance to develop, and it's especially tricky to do at the point they are often asked to do it - when they have just met a concept
I have pondered this a lot over the last few years, and have often searched for any research that has been done to indicate how useful (or otherwise) making students have 'notes' in their exercise books are. To me it seems beneficial to have some correctly completed examples (often for showing students how to lay out their working), but they generally don't have to copy much in my classroom. If I really want them to have some important facts, information or other, I often print something for them to glue in their books, for example, vocabulary and definitions. Sometimes this involves some filling in the blanks to make it a bit more active. Would be very interested if anyone knows of any research in this area.
Yes, research seems limited. I also agree that good layout is important, but I think that can be achieved with a follow question for students to try, and then the teacher saying things like "if your first line of working looks like this, give yourself a tick..." and so on. Thanks for the reply Anna!
I've left the classroom, too . . . and for exactly the same reasons as Peter Murphy! [see comment in this blog]. As a HoD I had to cringe as I watched my junior colleagues in the Maths Dept start the main part of their lessons laboriously getting students copying down lesson objs (and some senior leaders justified it by saying it was part of "getting the class settled and quiet" - oh dear!); when they saw my lessons without the writing down of objs, I replied it was more important that students understood what we were going to learn today, but why the need to write it down. So, the "accountability regime" has ruled for far too long now. I retired early 6 years ago, having chosen not to accept the offer from my line manager to stay on and fight "the system" with his support; I sensed it would have been a long forlorn battle and I was right.
I really identify with your positive article here Craig, and also I love Jo Morgan's enthusiasm and style. But, (Maths) teachers need to be given a much looser rein, free from various forms of such tight and rigid accountability structures, and sadly I cannot see this on the horizon.
Thanks for your comments, Pete. I agree that in some schools the accountability regime has gone too far at the expense of what is best for the students
There are so many variables that spring to mind when reading this; examples include i) whether the class is streamed (I have found that more able students seem to need less direct instruction and seek little need for note-taking), ii) gender (girls like writing notes and highlighters, boys generally not) and iii) how long your maths lessons are etc.
I teach in NSW, Australia and the whole thing of writing lesson objectives is not “a thing” here so it’s interesting to read this post. I can imagine that would be a passive activity for most students and with limited time in class, there are surely other better things to prioritise such as grappling with questions.
Thanks for the post. A very enjoyable read and thought provoking.
Totally agree with Claire about students using copying things down (sometimes even the question!) as an avoidance/procrastination strategy. I would also add that in this day and age, there is no need for worked examples and notes to be copied down when they can easily be preserved in digital format. My standard practice now is to share all notes and worked examples digitally, precisely because I don't want students to have to waste time copying them into their books. My philosophy is that books should be for attempting to solve problems (and perhaps some light corrections and annotations, to at least provide a way of quickly confirming that students are checking whether they are on the right track or not rather than doing loads and loads of problems in the wrong way), and that means they can and probably should be somewhat messy. That said, I think there is an argument that some note taking can be beneficial, but I suspect it would be the kind of note taking that happens when students are actively thinking; summarising and/or synthesising things the teacher is saying or writing. Of course, that kind of note taking requires that students are able to obtain a reasonable level of understanding of what is being said or written in "real time", which is why choosing/designing worked examples that are at just the right level so that they construct new understanding from students' existing knowledge framework is so critical!
Really good point about notes shared with students in digital format. And I agree, note taking where students are actively engaging in the process is likely to be beneficial - it is just not what the majority of note taking seems to involve! Thanks for your comments!
Totally agree with this. Have been fighting this line of thought for years. Copying things down neatly can also lead to procrastination - if i spend a long time making my worked example pretty i won't have to do any of the questions for myself.....
For me the fourth suggestion is the way we should be planning all of our maths lessons. Put up the questions and find out how they will answer it. Yes they may go wrong, yes they may struggle and these are feelings we need to encourage so that they can get through that stage of problem solving.
The obsession with neatness is a really good point. I have taught many students who will happily spend 10 minutes copying down something so neatly, multiple colours, with highlights and the works, and yet in fact understand very little. Thanks for your comments!
This reminds me of doing my maths degree in the 1970s. Late in my second year, I thought: why am I copying down the maths lecture? I would prefer to listen and pay attention to the lecture. I needed the notes, so I asked a fellow student with neat handwriting if I could photocopy their notes immediately after the lesson and return them to them quickly. I found some willing helpers. This greatly improved my understanding of the maths. Photocopies were fairly new, so this was an innovative way of working.
In my final year, I did a course a friend of mine had done. She offered me her notes. Great, I didn’t have to copy and return notes after the lesson. But it didn’t work well! I ended up comparing what the lecturer said to what they said the previous year. This distracted me, seriously, from understanding the material being presented and the extra bits he said but didn’t write down. Occasionally there were minor differences from the previous years way of working. That was even more distracting.
So, experiments on this area are definitely worth considering.
Note, we only did examples, proofs etc. not learning objectives and similar admin related phrases.
Yes, it is certainly an area deserving of more research consideration, especially as it occurs in pretty much every maths lesson. Thanks for your reply!
I know this comment is a year late but have just re-read this newsletter and completely agree with your thoughts on the myth of copying.
One aspect that wasn't mentioned though is how teachers can be tempted to encourage a lot of copying in the belief that it is an aid to good behaviour. It is indeed often true that classes fall quiet when mindlessly copying. And maybe there is a small place for this as an occasional tool to quiet a rowdy class.
I also insist on pens down and full attention when doing an example on the board (no copying allowed). I also sometimes do ‘silent teacher’ (thanks for that tip too).
Then various different things (depending on group, topic etc etc), ranging from just asking questions to doing a similar question on whiteboards.
*** THEN ***
Once students have understanding, they are allowed to copy down the example,
*** BUT ***
They are encouraged to try and write it down from memory/understanding (doing the question again for themselves), but being able to check back that they did it correctly with the necessary detail. They can also look up if they get stuck doing it for themselves, and this can prompt further questions about a specific stage that they realise they hadn't understood well enough to reproduce themselves.
*** MY REFLECTION NOW ***
If you can move students to this habit, you effectively train them to get maximum benefit from the 'copying' process. A real skill that transfers to individual study and getting more from textbooks and other static resources: Read to understand. Reproduce the notes/example from that understanding. Check what you've reproduced. Like a whiteboard, this crystallises and checks initial understanding making that understanding more conscious and controlled. Unlike a whiteboard, they check their own work. This might be a goal that goes hand in hand with leading to more mature, self motivated learning.
*** OTHER TIP ***
Another alternative I also use is to share my example electronically for referral in follow-up work: I photograph the board with my phone and electronically post/send it to the class. If multiple parts, I might use adobe scan to organise this into a .pdf
I prefer to write ‘live’ and traditionally on a board, rather than with pre-prepared electronic resources, especially when doing examples, as class questioning and questions often guide what is produced. The photograph of what was done I think helps jog student memory back to what they were seeing and thinking about in class.
I feel like this applies particularly to maths? I am a history teacher and I feel like if they didn't write anything down, learning would be lessened. Is that right though?
I would really hope that your fourth suggestion isn't controversial. I would also hope that adults realise how easy it is to copy text without reading it, let alone engaging with it in any meaningful way.
That would be my hope too. I just think copying down has become so ingrained that it happens without any real thought as to why
I emigrated to New Zealand in 2020 after 20 years working in the UK education system, Over here we still have to share learning goals and success criteria but the SLT don't do book checks and so long as we can show we have shares goals and criteria with students that is enough for any observation that may be done.. I know some teachers get students to copy them, I don't as I have them on my lesson slides which the students can access from classroom should they wish, and I'd rather students spent their time doing the maths. I think your suggestion of using whiteboards to try a similar question to the worked example is a good one, and i'll be trying that next term.
Thanks Andrea. Always fascinating to hear how things are done in different countries
Craig, a breath of fresh air as always. I've left classroom teaching now, largely as a result of SLT failure to allow professionals to reason and follow reasoning and evidence on how best to improve their classroom practice. Green pen, purple pen, tick every page (!). And the sad realisation that they won't listen to a word that we say. There are some enlightened exceptions but overall they are deaf and blind to anything that challenges the 'orthodoxy'. Thanks again Craig.
Thanks Peter. I can certainly empathise with that. So sad that teaching has gone this way in a lot of schools. Thanks for your reply!
I retired from teaching 13 years ago. One of the things that drove me out was that as a result of Ofsted comments our school introduced regular book checks. My books were like rough work books - we didnt copy from the board and we didnt do formal corrections. But I did show pupils how solutions should be set out - especially in exams. And to be honest I resented having to "mark" the work as it was just every day class work. I only marked set pieces of work or tests. My exam results were always very good and I know that pupils were learning. And yet Ofsted wanted to see evidence in the books. Neat, exact work with lots of teacher comments may be appropriate in some subjects. But in my view not only was it not necessary in maths teaching but it was counter productive and wasted valuable learning time.
Hi Tom. I'm of the same view. I also think Ofsted have changed their stance on books (for the better) but the legacy message still rings true in the ears of some SLT. Frustrating! Thanks for your reply
I went back to school a few years ago and completed a post grad qualification and I definitely saw the value of annotating notes and reflection note taking. I have been explicitly teaching students reflection writing ever since and also how to use the Cornell note taking system. I think it is important for students to write notes that make sense to them. I also find faded examples to be a good approach.
Yes, I'm all in favour of reflective note taking and annotations. I think it's a skill that students (especially young ones) need time and guidance to develop, and it's especially tricky to do at the point they are often asked to do it - when they have just met a concept
I have pondered this a lot over the last few years, and have often searched for any research that has been done to indicate how useful (or otherwise) making students have 'notes' in their exercise books are. To me it seems beneficial to have some correctly completed examples (often for showing students how to lay out their working), but they generally don't have to copy much in my classroom. If I really want them to have some important facts, information or other, I often print something for them to glue in their books, for example, vocabulary and definitions. Sometimes this involves some filling in the blanks to make it a bit more active. Would be very interested if anyone knows of any research in this area.
Yes, research seems limited. I also agree that good layout is important, but I think that can be achieved with a follow question for students to try, and then the teacher saying things like "if your first line of working looks like this, give yourself a tick..." and so on. Thanks for the reply Anna!
I've left the classroom, too . . . and for exactly the same reasons as Peter Murphy! [see comment in this blog]. As a HoD I had to cringe as I watched my junior colleagues in the Maths Dept start the main part of their lessons laboriously getting students copying down lesson objs (and some senior leaders justified it by saying it was part of "getting the class settled and quiet" - oh dear!); when they saw my lessons without the writing down of objs, I replied it was more important that students understood what we were going to learn today, but why the need to write it down. So, the "accountability regime" has ruled for far too long now. I retired early 6 years ago, having chosen not to accept the offer from my line manager to stay on and fight "the system" with his support; I sensed it would have been a long forlorn battle and I was right.
I really identify with your positive article here Craig, and also I love Jo Morgan's enthusiasm and style. But, (Maths) teachers need to be given a much looser rein, free from various forms of such tight and rigid accountability structures, and sadly I cannot see this on the horizon.
Thanks for your comments, Pete. I agree that in some schools the accountability regime has gone too far at the expense of what is best for the students
There are so many variables that spring to mind when reading this; examples include i) whether the class is streamed (I have found that more able students seem to need less direct instruction and seek little need for note-taking), ii) gender (girls like writing notes and highlighters, boys generally not) and iii) how long your maths lessons are etc.
I teach in NSW, Australia and the whole thing of writing lesson objectives is not “a thing” here so it’s interesting to read this post. I can imagine that would be a passive activity for most students and with limited time in class, there are surely other better things to prioritise such as grappling with questions.
Thanks for the post. A very enjoyable read and thought provoking.
Thanks Pam! Interesting to get a perspective from Down Under!
Totally agree with Claire about students using copying things down (sometimes even the question!) as an avoidance/procrastination strategy. I would also add that in this day and age, there is no need for worked examples and notes to be copied down when they can easily be preserved in digital format. My standard practice now is to share all notes and worked examples digitally, precisely because I don't want students to have to waste time copying them into their books. My philosophy is that books should be for attempting to solve problems (and perhaps some light corrections and annotations, to at least provide a way of quickly confirming that students are checking whether they are on the right track or not rather than doing loads and loads of problems in the wrong way), and that means they can and probably should be somewhat messy. That said, I think there is an argument that some note taking can be beneficial, but I suspect it would be the kind of note taking that happens when students are actively thinking; summarising and/or synthesising things the teacher is saying or writing. Of course, that kind of note taking requires that students are able to obtain a reasonable level of understanding of what is being said or written in "real time", which is why choosing/designing worked examples that are at just the right level so that they construct new understanding from students' existing knowledge framework is so critical!
Really good point about notes shared with students in digital format. And I agree, note taking where students are actively engaging in the process is likely to be beneficial - it is just not what the majority of note taking seems to involve! Thanks for your comments!
Totally agree with this. Have been fighting this line of thought for years. Copying things down neatly can also lead to procrastination - if i spend a long time making my worked example pretty i won't have to do any of the questions for myself.....
For me the fourth suggestion is the way we should be planning all of our maths lessons. Put up the questions and find out how they will answer it. Yes they may go wrong, yes they may struggle and these are feelings we need to encourage so that they can get through that stage of problem solving.
The obsession with neatness is a really good point. I have taught many students who will happily spend 10 minutes copying down something so neatly, multiple colours, with highlights and the works, and yet in fact understand very little. Thanks for your comments!
This reminds me of doing my maths degree in the 1970s. Late in my second year, I thought: why am I copying down the maths lecture? I would prefer to listen and pay attention to the lecture. I needed the notes, so I asked a fellow student with neat handwriting if I could photocopy their notes immediately after the lesson and return them to them quickly. I found some willing helpers. This greatly improved my understanding of the maths. Photocopies were fairly new, so this was an innovative way of working.
In my final year, I did a course a friend of mine had done. She offered me her notes. Great, I didn’t have to copy and return notes after the lesson. But it didn’t work well! I ended up comparing what the lecturer said to what they said the previous year. This distracted me, seriously, from understanding the material being presented and the extra bits he said but didn’t write down. Occasionally there were minor differences from the previous years way of working. That was even more distracting.
So, experiments on this area are definitely worth considering.
Note, we only did examples, proofs etc. not learning objectives and similar admin related phrases.
Yes, it is certainly an area deserving of more research consideration, especially as it occurs in pretty much every maths lesson. Thanks for your reply!
I know this comment is a year late but have just re-read this newsletter and completely agree with your thoughts on the myth of copying.
One aspect that wasn't mentioned though is how teachers can be tempted to encourage a lot of copying in the belief that it is an aid to good behaviour. It is indeed often true that classes fall quiet when mindlessly copying. And maybe there is a small place for this as an occasional tool to quiet a rowdy class.
Very thought provoking. Thank you.
I also insist on pens down and full attention when doing an example on the board (no copying allowed). I also sometimes do ‘silent teacher’ (thanks for that tip too).
Then various different things (depending on group, topic etc etc), ranging from just asking questions to doing a similar question on whiteboards.
*** THEN ***
Once students have understanding, they are allowed to copy down the example,
*** BUT ***
They are encouraged to try and write it down from memory/understanding (doing the question again for themselves), but being able to check back that they did it correctly with the necessary detail. They can also look up if they get stuck doing it for themselves, and this can prompt further questions about a specific stage that they realise they hadn't understood well enough to reproduce themselves.
*** MY REFLECTION NOW ***
If you can move students to this habit, you effectively train them to get maximum benefit from the 'copying' process. A real skill that transfers to individual study and getting more from textbooks and other static resources: Read to understand. Reproduce the notes/example from that understanding. Check what you've reproduced. Like a whiteboard, this crystallises and checks initial understanding making that understanding more conscious and controlled. Unlike a whiteboard, they check their own work. This might be a goal that goes hand in hand with leading to more mature, self motivated learning.
*** OTHER TIP ***
Another alternative I also use is to share my example electronically for referral in follow-up work: I photograph the board with my phone and electronically post/send it to the class. If multiple parts, I might use adobe scan to organise this into a .pdf
I prefer to write ‘live’ and traditionally on a board, rather than with pre-prepared electronic resources, especially when doing examples, as class questioning and questions often guide what is produced. The photograph of what was done I think helps jog student memory back to what they were seeing and thinking about in class.
I feel like this applies particularly to maths? I am a history teacher and I feel like if they didn't write anything down, learning would be lessened. Is that right though?